H50 3.08

Nov. 26th, 2012 11:20 pm
kristen999: (H Steve Angst)
[personal profile] kristen999
Thoughts under the cut.

The episode was kind of like they stuck two different ideas together into one script.

Steve's sudden jumping to conclusions with the shrink seemed out of character, but I blame it on pacing or the lack of good pacing at the start.

Don't get me wrong, once Olivia started screwing around with him and getting under his skin, then I enjoyed the cat and mouse. It was cool to have a smart female villain, but there was no real build to justify such heavy suspicion, unless it was her profiling him that really riled him up? Steve really is not normally this so hot-headed unless children or fathers are involved. *scratches head*

Again, if there had been enough of a lead-up than it would have been easier to understand the fact that he hates being played. I get that. It's so Steve. And wow, did she really get him good at the restaurant. The flat tire?

EDIT: I have come around to the idea that this was really about Steve trusting his gut when everyone else didn't. I can see that raising his hackles and making him more determined.

EDIT2: On the re-watch, I found Steve's behavior more reasonable and found it much more in character.


I liked her a lot. She really got to show a ton of skills and I don't want to hear things like 'how does she know how to kick ass?' She was in naval intelligence, we don't know what she did, and we've gotten enough hints that she's done this thing before.

I really, really hope she doesn’t lie to Steve. I hope we learned she told him off-screen and considering that Steve always ready knows Doris is lying about stuff, but please, don't go there. Don't let this be another betrayal. Since we don't know...I'm going to assume she DID tell him, just like I think anyone on his team would tell him and nod to Doris to her face.

EDITED to add: If she did lie to him, as much as it'll hurt Steve, it will be add a lot of layers. I mean what can I say. I hate seeing him hurt but at the same time, Steve angst is a thing of beauty. Conflict is good drama and the idea of Steve and Catherine trying to work through something like this, even if it results with them on the rocks guarantees great acting from both Alex and Michelle. With MB a regular, it gives her
and Steve something meaty to play with and an arc. Calm. Conflict. Resolution.


Um. Whoa.

Guess her and Wo Fat have something in common.

And how is Doris going to explain the broken lamp, the blood on the floor, and her bruise?

There was stuff I didn't like, but there was good stuff in between. And a lot left for future eppys!

Date: 2012-11-27 04:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stellarmeadow.livejournal.com
Y'know, this was originally 3.09, wasn't it? If that's the case...maybe something happened in the ep that was filmed before it that would explain jumping so quickly?

Though I think if you push the right buttons on Steve, he can jump pretty quickly. (Now my mind's gone off to a McDanno place...*g*). And everyone was a) overruling him and b) not believing his gut, which are things he doesn't deal well with. He also really doesn't deal well with people getting away with crimes. So she was pushing all his buttons at once...and we've seen how well that goes. At least time it didn't end with the governor dead and Steve in jail?

I did like Danny trying to manage him, though...

Cath is awesome. :)

Date: 2012-11-27 05:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kristen999.livejournal.com
I believe Steve can get really intense when all his buttons are pressed, I just think we needed just a little bit more of Olivia screwing with him first before he got a tad obsessed.

Yes, he did not break into any place this time around :)

I did enjoy all of Danny's expressions when Olivia was working Steve's buttons in the office. That was priceless.

Date: 2012-11-27 05:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stellarmeadow.livejournal.com
Danny was cracking me up with his reactions to Olivia's playing Steve like that. I also enjoyed the hand on the shoulder...still say that whole marriage thing is a touchy subject... (in my mind... *g*)

Date: 2012-11-27 04:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] powrhug.livejournal.com
I agree with everything! (as usual)

Which was the subplot and which was the main though? I assume the Cath part was the sub?

Date: 2012-11-27 05:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kristen999.livejournal.com
Heee. We do think a lot a like :)

Cath was the subplot, but I enjoyed hers the most!

Date: 2012-11-27 06:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azziria.livejournal.com
Well, I really enjoyed it :)

Yes, there were flaws, but I seem to be getting back to my S1 state of mind where I can just ignore those and enjoy the characters and the pretty. I'm just glad that I didn't read any episode reactions before I watched it, so I didn't go into it looking for flaws.

Date: 2012-11-27 02:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kristen999.livejournal.com
I never read eppy reactions before watching an episode because I don't want to taint my viewing. You should keep doing that. :)

I've been pretty happy all season long, I think what got to me was the idea that Cath might lie to Steve. But after sleeping on it, I do admit Olivia has great chemsitry with Steve and it was cool to watch them interact, I did like that :) Someone mentioned the idea that no one trusted Steve's gut on the case and that was reason enough for him to all riled up and add to the fact the way she pushed his buttons, his obsessive need to take her down was interesting.

Date: 2012-11-29 01:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kristen999.livejournal.com
Coming back to say on the re-watch, I really liked the eppy a lot more and I found Steve's behavior much more in character. I don't why it felt so OOC upon the first viewing.

Date: 2012-11-27 09:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eumelia.livejournal.com
There were flaws I agree, but I was just so sucked into the dynamic and chemistry that the speed in which is happened seemed part of the sizzling chemistry. I really enjoyed this episode for a number of reasons.

Doris is brutal and ruthless and it makes perfect sense in H50's history of parallels to make her and Wo Fat so similar.

I was all a squee! :)

Date: 2012-11-27 11:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kristen999.livejournal.com
There was real chemistry I totally agree and I blame watching it with commercials that messed up the pace for me.

I am very curious about Doris and Wo Fat's parallels and what we'll learn of the two of them in the future.

Date: 2012-11-27 11:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] verasteine.livejournal.com
Yeah, the a plot didn't get enough space. I had that feeling at the end of the plot rather than at the beginning, but I agree with you.

I loved Doris, and I love the ambiguity of Cath not telling him, but I do hope they'll follow up on that.

Date: 2012-11-27 02:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kristen999.livejournal.com
I hope Catherine told him. If not, it is ripe with Steve finding out and when it does...oi. That one is going to hurt him big time.

Mid season finale type stuff?


Date: 2012-11-27 02:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] verasteine.livejournal.com
I think the point is that Steve's going to find out? I mean, why else show this scene? I'm kind of terrible, because I'm looking forward to it.

Date: 2012-11-27 02:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kristen999.livejournal.com
It's ambiguous. Either there will be the conformation with Doris where Steve tells her he knows she lied to him about Wo Fat and yes, he knows what she did in the warehouse because Cath told him or..

We'll have the big scene where Steve finds out Catherine was in cahoots with Doris for this caper and no matter the why, it'll be another betrayal. And while I'll ache for Steve, of course the angst will be quite a show and maybe we'll see Catherine and Steve trying to piece things together which would be great drama. I've never expected their relationship to be totally 100% steady once she became a regular and that only adds depth and complicity with is good stuff.
Edited Date: 2012-11-27 02:58 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-11-27 04:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] verasteine.livejournal.com
Depth and complicity, I like this phrase. And yeah, Steve angst, it'll be dramatic and I hope it's going to happen soonish, because I think Steve needs a breakdown, tbh.

Date: 2012-11-27 01:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lunachickk.livejournal.com
Cath was awesome and I rather like Tony-from-24. They worked quite well together. I kinda think she should keep him as a partner.

I'm not too sure about her new little alliance with Doris. Although, I like Doris the conundrum.

I agree about the Steve stuff. It was like he flew off the handle for almost no reason at first. Either we missed something or maybe he should have been called Blood Hound instead of Smooth Dog. ;)

Danny was priceless watching him though.

Date: 2012-11-27 02:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kristen999.livejournal.com
That was Tony! I thought it was and yeah, it would be cool to see him return.

All the people around Steve want to protect him but not being truthful with him. Oi. I do not envy Catherine's position at all.

Date: 2012-11-27 03:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lunachickk.livejournal.com
He'll always be Tony to me. :D

I don't know why people are always trying to protect Steve. He's a big Super-SEAL boy. He can take care of himself!

Date: 2012-11-27 02:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tailoredshirt.livejournal.com
I don't think Catherine is going to tell Steve, which I really hate because, like you said, another betrayal. I think Steve and Catherine are headed for a break-up somewhere down the road, and I have a feeling this is going to be the cause. Not looking forward to this...

I'm guessing they cut some of the flat tire scene, because weren't there some promo pics with Steve and Danny arguing while Steve fixed the flat?

Date: 2012-11-27 03:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kristen999.livejournal.com
Break-up, maybe. Rocky path? I think so. Either one won’t be totally unexpected since Lenkov hinted it wouldn’t be total smooth sailing with them and I’ve always been alright with that. With Michelle a regular it makes sense for the two of them to have conflict, its great drama, and it keeps things fresh. I hate the idea that Steve is constantly lied to and Cath is really in a tough spot, but if they do head for rocky waters, I think we’ll see Alex and Michelle’s A-game and that will be awesome to watch.

Mid-season finale or Season ending finale material, this type of stuff has peaks and valleys and whatever the result, I don’t think the turmoil would be long-lasting.
Edited Date: 2012-11-27 03:09 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-11-27 03:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tailoredshirt.livejournal.com
What I meant by break-up is that I can see them breaking up for a while and then reconciling later. A rocky patch. I'm glad that she's a regular because it means she's in it for the long haul, so they're not going to dump her overboard and have Steve move on to a new love interest. (I can't see a new love interest working for him anyway. Catherine works because he trusts her and they share a history. There's too much going on in Steve's life for anything new.)

I am looking forward to the drama and seeing their relationship tested, because hopefully that means it'll just get more emotional and interesting with them, but I'm also preparing to be a little gutted watching it play out. If Steve decides even temporarily that Catherine has lost his trust, that'll be a huge blow (for Steve and me!).

I wonder if it'll last a bit longer than one or two episodes. Like, a whole season or something. Other shows have stretched these things out for a long time. idk, I guess we'll see. Should be interesting either way.

Date: 2012-11-27 05:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jimandblair.livejournal.com
okay, I've read your comment, but I haven't read the other comments in the post. I'm kind of guessing people's mileage with this one might vary. But there was a lot in it. Technically, there was some pacing weirdness and 0_o moments.

But characterwise there was some meaty bones coming to the surface of the soup of people's emotions. Ah, Steve your issues have issues. But at least you've Danny to help -- Danny who def. has had some experience with therapists, his dialogue ('control the narrative')-his insights?

Doris -- Wow, she (a female actor) was torturing a man, after evidently beating him in a fight, either at the house, or in the torture den (was it his or hers?). Catherine and Doris having one-on-one discussion. Catherine making a poor decision, when normally she is so sensible, despite being far too amenable to Stevie’s batting of the eyelashes, even as she calls him on it.

Doris is manipulative, with a capital M.

Which takes us to Olivia – now that was manipulative, and calculating. From the outset, she set hackles rising. Thinking back, Steve jumped to massive conclusions, which were right, but was interesting that he was right when Olivia was so manipulative (cos I was thinking red herring). I think that I would have liked Kono to have been on Steve’s side, because she had seen Olivia being so calm and snide, and avoiding Steve’s questions, with her own at the start.

I actually found it hard to stay in the story because I had to analyse what was happening.


Date: 2012-11-27 11:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kristen999.livejournal.com
There is a lot of interesting opinions on this one, definitely a lot of squee, some not so much and a few in between.

I also wondered who that torture set-up belonged too and who kidnapped who?

Doris. With every layer we see, I'm more curios about her and I really hope we get a meaty scene with her and Steve when everything comes falling apart.

Totally agree that Steve's issues have issues and it was fun watching Danny in all this as she pushed every one of his buttons. Danny had some sound advice in the car and I loved that scene in the office later on.
Edited Date: 2012-11-27 11:42 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-11-27 05:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] antivol.livejournal.com
I don't think Steve jumps to conclusions too fast - my feeling while watching was that he just had this hunch, this absolute certitude that she was guilty - like he said, it's a gut thing, you can't explain it. And then, she began to play him, and his friends didn't follow him, and only then, he began to get a bit mad and obsessed! (which I totally understand, being a little stubborn myself...) Otherwise, I totally agree with everything you said in your review. Catherine is fabulous. I liked the witsec guy. And Doris is scary (poor Steve - I hope he never has to see what she's able to do). And I, too, hope that Cath tells him at least part of what happened. Or, how is she going to be able to look at him eye to eye? Thanks for the review and the occasion to share the love!

Date: 2012-11-28 12:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kristen999.livejournal.com
I'm slowly coming around to the fact that Steve is real bulldog about his gut and coupled with his team's doubts, it really made him very head strong. Like I said, I enjoyed it a lot when Olivia started to play him, but for me, the start felt off, but I think with a re-watch things might play out different, esp with the lack of commercials.

Doris really is like a shadow of Wo Fat in a lot of ways and that is scary.

Date: 2012-11-28 03:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] t-verano.livejournal.com
I've just watched once now, but that first scene with Olivia, where Steve almost immediately locks down on her -- I was thinking both "strong gut feeling" and that she'd immediately sized him up as a threat and tried to get him off balance by her off the wall questions about which branch of the service and if he'd been in Iraq or Afghanistan -- sort of like both of them recognized "enemy" at first sight. And her "get him off balance" remarks pushed even more of Steve's "being played" buttons.

I loved that he didn't seem unreasonable at any point (to me), just (very) determined, not always smooth about it (heh), and absolutely confident in his gut instinct, which has probably saved his life and other people's lives more than once in his SEAL and NI past.

I liked this ep a lot -- the moment Cath says to Doris "you did" when Doris says "you don't walk away from an explosion like that" -- and Vanessa Marcil totally pushed my buttons, too; she's excellent at that. And poor Steve in the cafe with Olivia, almost buying for a moment that she'll be driven to talk about the murder, but being set up instead...

Date: 2012-11-27 07:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thegrrrl2002.livejournal.com
I did really enjoy this ep, but you're right, they didn't weave the two plots together very well. There were some very awkward transitions. But I loved seeing someone get the better of Steve, even briefly, and loved Danny's reaction to the situation. I also loved watch Cath being all badassed and tough, and I totally dig Doris and all her ambiguity. But I was surprised at the end when Cath agreed not to tell Steve what happened. Should be interesting, in terms of their relationship, should Steve find out about it. Which I am assuming will happen at some point. I agree that it will make for good drama.

Date: 2012-11-28 12:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kristen999.livejournal.com
I think I might enjoy this more on a re-watch. Like I said there were things I did like a lot between the things that bugged me. As you know, it doesn't take much to make me happy :) I'm definitely looking forward to the Danny watching Steve show :)

Date: 2012-11-27 11:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tex.livejournal.com
I, unfortunately, feel like this is the beginning of the end of Catherine. I've enjoyed her presence on the show and her interactions with Steve because she holds her own with him. She's not a simpering lovesick stereotype in the least. But, not only is betraying Steve, but she's putting herself in a very dangerous situation.

And who was that guy that was running around with her? Have we seen him before? Because he was pretty cute! I wouldn't mind seeing more of that guy. : )

As for Doris, I wish that Steve's mom had been just a sweet lady whom Joe had pulled off to Japan against her will, kicking and screaming the whole way. Not some crazy woman who tortures people. I'm not digging her at all.

Date: 2012-11-28 12:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kristen999.livejournal.com
We met the Witsec guy in the eppy where Catherine tried to locate Doris for Steve in eppyy two. He was from 24. I liked him :)

I'm not sure about the end of Catherine since he is a new regular, but I do see this as a start for some rockiness between her and Steve. I really like her, so I don't mind some extra drama between them, but ugh, she's in a tough position.

Date: 2012-11-27 11:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aries-taurus.livejournal.com
See, I *got* Steve's reaction. Something rubbed him the wrong way and he knows how to judge character. He was Naval intelligence too. He can spot a lie and he HATES being played... And Cath knows that. Will she tell him? No, because she gets why Doris asked her not to say anything. Will she lie to him? No. IF Steve asks, she'll tell him what she knows.

I also loved the fact that Cath was equally on the fence about putting a label on what Steve is to her... Peas in a pod, those two...

Date: 2012-11-28 12:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kristen999.livejournal.com
I know he was in NI :)

The whole he doesn't ask so she's not lying by keeping it from him IS lying. On the one hand, I understand why Cath would want to keep the truth from him, not wanting him to worry about his mother all the time because of his protective nature, but that his decisions, not Doris' and not Catherine's. I don't understand why everyone who cares for him thinks lying is protecting him --he's a gown man and a SEAL. He can take it.

On the other hand, I think she is a very tough, tough position, and she's doing it out of love, but Steve will see it as a huge violation of trust and he'll have every right to feel that if he finds out.

Either way, it'll make for great drama :)

And I totally agree that I love the fact that the both of them don't have a definition for their relationship.

Date: 2012-11-28 02:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] t-verano.livejournal.com
I wonder if maybe there was sort of a "being played" theme here on Cath's level too, not just Steve's? I'm having a hard time not thinking that Doris played Cath in that final scene in the car -- projecting "don't make me hurt Steve more than I already have by making him worry about this" at Cath, but maybe maybe what Doris was trying to *not* project was "don't tell my son, who I'm on rocky ground with, that I spent the afternoon torturing a guy in a very practiced, vicious way, and that I'm desperate enough about my safety to do just about anything I see a need to, dirty as well as clean" ?

And boy, yeah, do I think Cath has just been pushed down the rocky path to Steve sooner or later finding out and feeling more betrayed than maybe he ever has before by anyone. I really loved that moment at Cath's house where she's worried about Steve and he makes the remark about hating being played -- and then Cath gets caught up in all this stuff about Doris, and oh my heart hurts. I so much love the way Steve and Cath are, in their "friends" relationship, knowing each other so well and caring so much, and trusting so much, but not all "3.2 kids and white picket fence and Love Of My Life, oozing romance". Breaking that up, even temporarily -- aiyyy. I hadn't planned on liking Cath nearly as much as I do, and I'll hurt for her, but Steve? feeling even just a little betrayed by Cath? PAIN. SO MUCH PAIN.

Date: 2012-11-28 12:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mcparrot.livejournal.com
Very good point about Doris there. She is sneaky and manipulative and totally self obsessed. "Don't tell Steve," (that I'm a torturer) rings true for me.

And I'm back to wondering if the Wo Fat is Doris' son idea might have legs.
Musing as I type here. How about the idea that while Doris was in Japan she was actively being some sort of spy (probably not for the CIA) AND was in deep with the Yakuza and Wo Fat. I'm thinking Wo Fat had no idea she was Shelbourne. Which makes what happened in the safe house make sense. He fronts up to kill his father's murderer, the mysterious Shelbourne, only to come face to face with his (mother)/mentor/someone he knows well and respects.

That works for me.

And I'm with you on liking Cath far more than I thought I would.

Date: 2012-12-03 10:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] t-verano.livejournal.com
LATE reply (jealous RL :-)) -- but yeah, I really like your theory -- there has to be some connection between Doris and Wo Fat, in which he didn't know he was Shelburne. If he is her son, I wonder whether he knows/ knew before this that Steve is his half-brother? (I know a lot of people would think of this as soap-opera plot and not be thrilled, but I have to say I'm fine with whatever as long as they handle it well -- Doris is one messed up lady (I love your description of her), and if she doesn't end up hurting Steve more along the way, whether through this or something else, it will be almost too FairyTale Happy Ending for me.)

It's kind of cool to see some seeds of Steve's character in Doris, except that he backs up his pushiness and confidence with integrity and courage and doing whatever he believes is right, and that's not really a path Doris maybe was ever on, or at least she hasn't been on it for a couple of decades.

Date: 2012-12-03 10:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kristen999.livejournal.com
My Doris theory has always been she was Wo Fat's handler. When she faked her death she went back to her CIA buddies and became an agent in Asia. Wo Fat did not know she was Shelboune and the best way to 'protect' her family was to be as close to her enemy as possible. I never thought Doris was just 'hiding' she's too much of an hard ass and I can take care of myself to sit on the sidelines.

I bet they were a team for while. *shivers*

People forget. No only did she not shoot him, he did not shoot her.

Date: 2012-12-03 11:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] t-verano.livejournal.com
There was definitely mutual not-shooting going on. :-)

So in your theory, Wo Fat is ex-CIA? Or Doris was a double agent with whoever/whatever in Asia, and Wo Fat was an agent there before he veered off into his personal path?

I may not be asking even remotely intelligent questions here -- Doris and her CIA self make my brain all slippery and I can't hold onto things in my head. *rolls eyes*

Date: 2012-12-03 11:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kristen999.livejournal.com
Wo Fat isn't ex-CIA, but remember he did work with them conducting arms deal where we couldn't legally. He's ex Chinese military with his own empire. We know Doris was/is an agent so when she faked her death she still worked for the CIA or at least acted as a spy for them.

That's my theory.

Date: 2012-12-03 11:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] t-verano.livejournal.com
I don't even remember the arms deal thing (or maybe it was s1 and I didn't see it). Good to know more about Wo Fat's past, thanks!

If it turns out that Doris was his handler, however/whatever/whenever -- it wouldn't kill Steve as much as Wo Fat being his half brother, but it still is going to mess him up. Aiyyy.

I know there are fans who aren't interested in the Doris arc (or whatever you want to call it), but it's so critical for Steve. I'm...okay, I'm happy about it, when I thought at the end of last season I wouldn't be. Doris is an interesting character in her own right, and TPTB hasn't tried to make everything all "okay" now, now that Steve's (sorta, maybe, maybe not) got his mom back.

Date: 2012-11-28 03:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timespirt.livejournal.com
I felt Steve was out of character in this ep. Still a good ep.

Date: 2012-11-28 12:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mcparrot.livejournal.com
I really liked this one. I liked seeing Steve with his knickers in a knot and Danny trying to smooth him out.

I LOVED Doris' true nature showing through. That was a real shock, and shouldn't have been. See my reply to T_Verano on my musings about Doris and Wo Fat.I really like that idea now I've thought of it.

Cath, liking her more than I thought I would, what ever she's supposed to be. Love that she can break into rooms and safes and escape out of balconies. Lying to Steve, - not keen on that.

Steve... awwww, he's so pretty, and hurt underneath and that sneaky woman could see and poke where he hurt. No wonder he got wound up about her.

Loved that she was a madam rather than a therapist. Thought that was a glorious twist. Cause she pulled off the therapist so well. She was a great character. Nasty way for that poor bloke to die though. Shot, doused in petrol, on fire and then hit by a car. Bloody hell, that's horrible.

teal dear
I liked it.


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