H50 Meta Questions

[kristen999]

Okay. I’m trying to wrap my head around some of the H50 meta because I think I’m missing an obvious piece of info and I know you lovely people will encapsulate it for me and I’ll go ‘doh’!


Question(s) Under the cut. Spoilers through 2x14.




Why did Joe fake Hiro’s death? I know it is because Wo Fat wants him dead, but why?

I ‘think’ it is because Wo Fat is just trying to get rid of loose ends, right? But why does Joe care if he dies?

Which leads to my biggest question---Wasn’t Hiro the person responsible for Steve’s mother’s death? He had his brother (Koji) put the bomb on the car that killed his mom although it was meant for Jack. Right?

Because if Hiro Was responsible. Shouldn’t Steve be furious that Joe helped him?

Or did I miss the part where we were told that Hiro wasn’t responsible for Steve’s mother’s death. And if so, who is? Because Wo Fat would have been what in his 30’s at that time and wasn’t he still with the Chinese military?


Or should I just stop right now?

After getting over the whole Shelburne thing, I realized I really liked last night’s eppy.

Thank you!! *blows kisses*

Comments

[ezzri.livejournal.com]

These are just a few of the many questions I had after this latest episode. It just simply didn't answer enough for me.

My only guess is, yes, Steve knows that Hiro told his brother to put the bomb on the car. But, I had been assuming all along that Wo Fat ultimately had ordered Hiro to do that, but what you just said makes sense. I'm still foggy on when Wo Fat gets involved and what the Governor was involved in and how Steve's dad fits into it all.

I actually didn't enjoy last night's episode. I was rather let down at the "big reveal" at the end. Did I miss something, or has it been told who Joe was talking to at the end of a previous episode? ("We need to move you...") He wasn't talking to Hiro in the trunk, was he?

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

I wish we had more info about Wo Fat and teh governor's involvement period, but I'm sure we'll learn soon, yes? :D

The reveal was a let down and for a little while I let it overshadow how much I enjoyed the rest of the eppy.

[cmariad.livejournal.com]

Steve DEFINITELY knows Hiro told his brother Koji to put the bomb under what was actually his Dad's car which his Mom was driving that day, resulting in her death instead of his Dad's. That was all dealt with in Ke Kinohi, Episode 113, where the Champ box gets stolen & Mary gets kidnapped because she's been nosing around in the Champ box contents & about her Mom's death.

[verasteine.livejournal.com]

From what I understood/inferred (and it's hard to keep those two apart now) it's not clear whether Hiro ordered it, or someone ordered Hiro to do it? I think Hiro ordered it, yes. It couldn't have been Wo Fat, I thought, for the reasons you described.

But I think Joe's helping him because Hiro's a potential witness against Wo Fat. You know, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"? Wo Fat is tying up loose ends, yes, although it remains unclear how much power Wo Fat still has (I'd say, a lot.)

[ezzri.livejournal.com]

I wonder if Wo Fat's dad ordered the hit? And Wo Fat has gone into the "family business," whatever that may be. Joe killed Wo Fat's dad in retaliation (along with Steve's Dad).

[verasteine.livejournal.com]

Ooh! There's an interesting theory, hadn't thought of that one! Good point; yes.

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

And from a writer's stand point. Wo Fat had both Joe and Steve in his clutches at least once. I'd bet he'd be furious once he founds out. And since Steve is like a son to Joe...If I was Wo Fat I know how to inflict the most pain on my father's murderer....*cough*

[verasteine.livejournal.com]

Oh man, seriously, wow. Plus, does Wo Fat know it was Joe? There's so many unanswered questions, eeee, this makes me happy :).

ETA OMG at your icon. *stares*

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

I highly doubt that Wo Fat knows it was Joe since he almost beat him to death in 2x06. And he asked Steve if Joe White knew anything about Shelbourne.

But if were to find out..well let's just say my fanfic brain might go wild over that plot bunny :-P

That icon is the best! I love all that it implies with a *shudder*

[verasteine.livejournal.com]

...does that mean he thinks it was Jack? Wow. Way to visit the sins of the father upon the son, my god.

It is rather gorgeous.

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting theory. Kill Wo Fat's father is a HUGE thing and there has to be something met behind it.

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

Okay. Joe helping Hiro as a witness makes the most sense. Especially with keeping your enemy closer. I guess I'm surprised that Steve wasn't more angry about that when he learned what Joe was doing. Although Steve has a lot to be angry about

Thank you!

[powrhug.livejournal.com]

I got nothin.

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

(HUGS)

:-P

[iam-space.livejournal.com]

What if... and this just occurred to me, but say Wo Fat's father was in charge, and Wo Jr. was an underling (or in the military or whatever you say), but it was WF's *father* who ordered the car bomb that killed Steve's mom... and then Joe killed Wo Sr. because of that (or Steve's dad did and Joe lied to Steve when he said that he did it).

But... if I stick by my original theory that Shelburne is Steve's mom and she didn't die in the car bomb, then that explains why Joe is helping Hiro... because Hiro/Koji would have helped to fake Steve's mom's death... for whatever reason.

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

What if... and this just occurred to me, but say Wo Fat's father was in charge, and Wo Jr. was an underling (or in the military or whatever you say), but it was WF's *father* who ordered the car bomb that killed Steve's mom... and then Joe killed Wo Sr. because of that (or Steve's dad did and Joe lied to Steve when he said that he did it).

That's a really good theory and one that seems toe fit the most wiht my mind. *nods*

[mezzo-cammin.livejournal.com]

I'm no help, because I've missed most of this season - catching up soon, though.

However, I stand by my original posit that Steve's father isn't really dead. Um - has that been proven yet?

*sneaks off to download the eps)

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

I'd buy his mom being alive over his dad, only because Danny was assigned Jack's death and would have seen the body. I just don't see anything being slipped over Danno like that.

[mezzo-cammin.livejournal.com]

Yes, but...we never actually saw him being shot, did we? Steve heard it. And then...closed casket? The governor said he was dead. Danny's going to argue with her on what may have been his first big case? Forensic reports could have been falsified.

Stranger things have happened.

*g*

[tridget.livejournal.com]

It was very late when I watched it last night and I assumed I didn't quite get that because I was tired. I was kind of just enjoying the sights and sounds of the show without putting too much thinking into it. Maybe it wasn't just me though.

I had some plot possibilities worked out in my head, too, and this didn't quite jive with my speculation. Unless Joe is lying to put Steve off the trail in which case speculation is still open. But that still doesn't explain Steve's acceptance of this.

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

Joe might not be Steve's CO anymore, but I think his acceptance of "This is a secret or this is Top Secret" has been engrained into him from his training. That's my theory why he shuts down whenever Joe uses it as his meaning for keeping him in the dark about so much.

*shrugs*

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

Let's see if I have this right.

1. Wo Fat is tying up loose ends.

2. Hiro worked with Wo Fat, has information on him, ordered Koji to kill Steve's father, and is now a loose end himself.

3. By hiding Hiro, Joe has living evidence of Wo Fat's connection to the murder of Steve's mother and Steve's father.

4. The Governor was a loose end. She was working with Hiro, and with Wo Fat, to keep Steve where Wo Fat could find him and get information about "Shelbourne." (Keep your friends close but your enemies closer.) By killing her, Wo Fat tied off that loose end and set up Steve for her murder.

5. "Shelbourne" was the alias Jack and Joe used to distract Wo Fat. Jack gave that alias to Wo Fat and the Governor during his "official" investigation of the Yakuza.

6. "Shelbourne" killed Wo Fat's father, who worked with the Yakuza. Joe claims he was using the alias when he killed the elder Wo.

7. Since Wo Fat is still looking for "Shelbourne" for revenge -- and is afraid of him for the information he supposedly has concerning Wo Fat's activities with the Yakuza -- I believe Mrs. McGarrett's death has nothing to do with "Shelbourne." Jack McGarrett was targeted due to his continued investigation of the Yakuza and the fact that he had connected Hiro to Wo Fat (and possibly Wo Senior).

Questions: Was Wo Fat involved with the Yakuza before or after his father's death? How long was he in the Chinese Army?

Speculation 1: I think Wo Fat came into the Yakuza before his father was killed. It takes time to build trust in any organization, let alone organized crime. Wo Fat would have to build his own reputation; nepotism only goes so far, especially if your sponsor is dead. Ergo, his father was alive long enough for Wo Fat to make his bones.

Speculation 2: While both Joe and Jack used "Shelbourne" as a decoy, Joe stated clearly that he promised to protect Steve and his sister. He even went so far as to protect Hiro's son, Adam. By lying to him. That simple, anti-climactic announcement of the "Shelbourne" alias and its purpose, after Joe fought so hard to keep Steve out of the loop, reeks of a bald-faced lie. Either Jack killed Wo Fat's father, or Joe knows "Shelbourne" is a real person and is trying to find him and/or protect him, or Joe doesn't know who "Shelbourne" is any more than anyone else and is trying to find him before Wo Fat does.

How's them apples?

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

OMG soooooo many apples!!!

I can't decide which speculation I side because are both are plausible and interesting.

I'm just glad I wasn't the only person someone baffled by a few of these dangling plot threads :-P

Thanks for the bullet points!

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking (Why are you laughing? Because I've been thinking?) about Mrs. McGarrett's murder. We know Jack "retired" after she died and he sent Steve and Mary Ann to the mainland.

The most he had done at the time of her murder was the official investigation into the Yakuza in Hawaii. Everything else came after that: the camera in the governor's office, the "Shelbourne" info, the items in the toolbox, all of it. That was all Jack's private investigation, sanctioned by the Governor.

Mrs. McGarrett's murder was supposed to stop Jack.

So why would he retire? Everyone said he was a "good" cop. Chin says he was a good cop. Send his kids away, maybe. But retire?

Not unless he no longer saw himself as a "good" cop.

I think Jack got his hands dirty by killing Wo Senior in revenge for killing his wife. "Good" cops don't do that. So he retired.

Joe knows good cops don't do that. But as a Navy SEAL, he's prepared to take the heat for his friend and give Steve some closure.

I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop and Steve to say, "Wait, that was too easy."

And re: Mrs. McGarrett still being alive? We saw what happened to the Governor's assistant. Steve's mother was killed the same way. Either another body was put in her place or she's very dead. Pick one. But if another body was there, why? And why the hell would a Hawaiian housewife kill a member of the Yakuza? And how? You'd have to come up with something reasonable to sell me on the idea that Mrs. McGarrett was some kind of secret agent/ninja assassin willing to abandon her family just to kill one man.

Either that or Wo Senior made a heavy pass at her, she accidentally killed him, and Hiro and Joe faked her death to protect Jack and the kids. Which leads to Joe returning the favor.

OMG, that's just ridiculous enough to make sense.

[lunachickk.livejournal.com]

I think there's a lot more going on than what Joe told Steve. Lenkov hinted it on Twitter last night.

Or else, the writers really are clueless idiots that can't write their way out of a paper bag. *head/desk*

I loved the Danny/Steve, Danny/Rachel, Sang Min/Kamekona stuff immensely!

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

Yeah. There is a whole lot of SOMETHING going on. I just wish we could wrap up a few holes form season one before jumping into the ones for season two.

[sheafrotherdon.livejournal.com]

Dude, you've just itemized many of the issues I have with this season. I can't believe there have been this many episodes opening up so many inconsistencies, rather than closing them. I'm just hand waving all the plot and focusing on the pretty, otherwise I'd lose my mind.

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

Ha! Sorry, hon! I just got to thinking last night and I was shocked at how much didn't add up and wondered if I had glazed over an important tidbit without realizing it.

I do love the characters and the pretty and hand wave a lot. But my brain wouldn't let me on the whole Steve Shakespearean Tragedy they've got going :-P

[coolbreeze1.livejournal.com]

I'm still loving this show and the case of the week parts of the episodes, but I admit, I'm a little lost on the whole arc of the season with Wo Fat and Hiro and Shelbourne. The "big" revelation at the end mostly just left me scratching my head and trying to remember the rest of these arc elements.

But oh well. Danny was such a sweetheart in this episode, and I loved Kamekona's bodyguard role. Is there not a new episode next week or something? I missed the preview...

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

We're going into football playoffs so I think we don't get anything new until Feb but I could totally wrong.

I love SHOW. It just left me a little confused ha!

[evening-spirit.livejournal.com]

You all haz so much thoughts, I'm now more baffled than I was at the end of the episode.

I have nothing to add, but it's an interesting read. ;)

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

I just wanted to make sure I wasnt the only one slightly befuddled :-P

[thegrrrl2002.livejournal.com]

After reading through the comments here, it's all starting to make a little more sense. At least, the possibilities are. Thank you for that.

I'm too caught up in the epic love story of Steve and Danny to be able to keep track of all this Wo Fat business. :D

[shepsgirl.livejournal.com]

I don't think Joe told Steve the full story about Shelburne and I look forward to when they revisit the storyline again. I was a bit surprised that Steve didn't react a bit more when Joe said he helped the man who may have been involved in his mothers death.

I can't see Mrs McGarrett being involved. Would she stay away from her kids this long without trying to make any kind of contact, even if it had to be in secret. I know I coudln't stay away from mine.

Anyway enjoying the intrigue and hoping Joe will be back soon. I love his relationship with Steve and it will be gold if Wo Fat finds out who killed his papa. He knows how close Steve is to Joe, so pretty sure Steve will be used in his payback. Aw poor Steve, he can't catch a break.

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

I don't think Joe told Steve the full story about Shelburne and I look forward to when they revisit the storyline again. I was a bit surprised that Steve didn't react a bit more when Joe said he helped the man who may have been involved in his mothers death.

I think Joe said whatever he could to get Steve to back off. And yes. One of the reasons for asking these questions was I was really puzzled at the lack of Steve's anger regarding Joe hiding Hiro given that Steve still thinks he is responsible for his mother's death.

I liked Joe. He was over used a bit, but I did enjoy his relationship with Steve.

And yes. My first thought about the whole Joe killed Wo Fats dad was...eeek. With the father son dynamic, Wo Fat's payback could be pretty evil. Steve watch out!

[jesseofthenorth.livejournal.com]

I am not trying to make sense of ALL of it any more. Either we have a really convoluted plot with a long arc or the writers are confused. Maybe both.
I am just going to enjoy the parts that make sense and try not to lose my one remaining marble figuring out the parts that don't.

That being said? I liked the ep just fine even though I completely forgot what the case was... before the ep was over :D

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

Oh, I enjoy the hell out of the show! But my brain coulnd't let this whole thing go, minaly b/c I was curious if I had lost all rational thought :-P

[sans-souci2.livejournal.com]

whoa !
thank you for this great thread with so many well thought out possibilities-
seems like despite this being the 'big reveal' ep for Shelburne- most folks agree there's lots more to come.
I'm just a little scared that when it finally comes-the whole story won' t be was good as some of the guesses here!
oh and I giggled, jesseofthenorth-ME TOO! Had no idea what the case was by the time the credits rolled!

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I asked, because this dd result in so many interesting thoughts and speculation!

Hee yeah. I doubt the real reason won't live up to some of the stuff here!

[creidh.livejournal.com]

Wait... there's a plot to this show? *scratches head*

[lastasalways.livejournal.com]

I kind of just figure that shelbourne is this stuffed animal that wo fat told his secrets to and got lost. Perhaps left in the golf cart? I'm a deep thinker like that.

But, I'm just stuck on that one episode where Joes on the phone telling someone they need to move Shelbourne.
A) Do double agent/whatever Joe is claiming to be really do that? Refer to themselves in third person.
B) I'm not an expert in time progression and it maybe real life time deluding 5 0 time, but hasn't it been a couple of weeks? Who moves so slowly?

B may also be related to in plain sight, Netflix, and what may or may not have been a marathon and with them it's like a day max before people are moved.

So I'm sticking to the stuffed animal theory, bonuses involve thinking this when I see him (wo fat) in other roles.